from stealthmunchkin

[ewt]

A lot has been said about how to prevent rape. Women should learn self-defense. Women should lock themselves in their houses after dark. Women shouldn't have long hair and women shouldn't wear short skirts. Women shouldn't leave drinks unattended. Fuck, they shouldn't dare to get drunk at all. Instead of that bullshit, how about:

If a woman is drunk, don't rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don't rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don't rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don't rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don't rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her.
If your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and that he's not your friend.
If your "friend" tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs and it's your turn, don't rape her, call the police and tell the guy he's a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it's not okay to rape someone.
Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape. See comments for why I've crossed this out.
Don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x.
Don't imply that it's in any way her fault.
Don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl.
Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.

If you agree, re-post it. It's that important.

Note:
This goes for any gendered rape, male on female or female on male or FTM on MTF or non gendered to dual gendered and so on and so forth

Comments

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I've discussed this at length. I think the premise is wrong. I particularly think

Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape

is wrong, but more generally, I don't think that telling good people not to do bad things that they wouldn't ever do anyway is a good way of preventing bad people from doing the bad things they are going to do regardless of whether good people say it's a bad idea or not.

Implying that suggesting people be careful about the risk of getting their drinks spiked is morally equivalent to saying that if they wear a short skirt they were asking for it, is both nonsensical and divisive.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

I've seen a lot of "how to be safe" advice that somehow magically turns into "If you'd done X then this would never have happened, it is ALL YOUR FAULT," though.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.

I disagree with this one. There are ways to minimise the chances of being raped. If you are cognizant of those methods and practices and decide not to advise a female friend of them when she professes ignorance, and she subsequently ends up getting raped through ignorance of them, you are an indirect party to that assault.

Yes, I know, in an ideal world women should be able to drink as much as they like and wear what they like and not have to worry about the risk of being raped. But this is not an ideal world; it's never going to be an ideal world, and the sad fact is that a drunk woman in a garment that resembles a belt more than a skirt is neglecting her own personal safety and is behaving very stupidly.

Women should take responsibility for their own actions and not expect others to look out for them when they have deliberately incapacitated themselves.

[7leaguebootdisk.livejournal.com]

I thought this list would be better reversed. The cultural stuff applies to almost everyone, the "don't commit a clear felony" stuff applies to only a very small percentage.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Well yes, so have I, possibly the most absurd being the "don't use your mobile phone in public" posters.

Still, I am firmly of the view that X > Y by several orders of magnitude, where X is 'number of rapes prevented by explaining the circumstances in which rapes happen and ways of minimising the likelihood of being in them', and Y is 'number of rapes prevented by saying how naughty rape is and asking people nicely to stop doing it'.

Actively resisting dissemination of information X strikes me as especially dangerous, but maybe I take a short-termist view of social trends.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

I have crossed out that bit. Awareness of danger is important.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

So you have. Interestingly I can't see how the last point doesn't contradict the crossed-out point. Anyway, I'd probably cross out the intro about not leaving drinks unattended being bullshit too, but apart from that all the points made are fair, you'd just have to hope they're obvious to most of us.

Well, except Don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl. I'm still trying to work out how we make the law address this properly without undermining the system used by the British as a substitute for dating.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

I'm still trying to work out how we make the law address this properly without undermining the system used by the British as a substitute for dating.

I'm not British, I don't drink much (and don't get drunk at all), and have never dated casually. I probably can't help here.

[uon.livejournal.com]

I find this list intensely aggravating and patronising. I mean,

If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her

Well, gee, I'd never thought about it like that! I mean, until I'd read this, I'd never have thought twice about raping someone walking alone at night but now you bring it up I suppose it's not a nice thing to do! I guess I'll just have to stick to mugging instead.

If you agree, re-post it. It's that important.

Yeah right, like posting this all over livejournal will get it read by the rapists of the world, and they'll carefully think it over and see the error of their ways.

Sorry, Ewt, it's nothing personal, but I've lost count of how many times I've seen this pop up now. The "Please stop beating your wife" adverts on the tube annoy me just as much. By all means work to change the intensely awful stigma or shame or implication of guilt, and encourage people to report these things and stop covering up, but going around saying "Please don't rape people" is going to be about as useful as saying "Please don't murder".

[knockoutapathy.livejournal.com]

I think the point of the first half of it is tongue in cheek, directed at the people who say "dont wear a skirt" or "dont ever be nice to a male". It's about as intelligent as saying "dont rape a drunk woman" to a possible rapist.

To thee poster: heh, I suppose this goes some way to answering my feminism question.

[oban23.livejournal.com]

The only problem here is... there are people who would never get anywhere with women unless they're drunk. And I don't mean bring home a half-unconscious chick and banging her. For some people (me for example) it is impossible to even communicate properly unless drunk. And no sober girl has ever liked me... as a matter of fact not even the drunk girls after they sobered up.

[vashti.livejournal.com]

I've reposted this (with my own mod).

As far as the "well, I was going to rape you but now you told me it sucks I won't" stuff, whatever. I'm unceasingly amazed by the people I know who manage to come out with crap like "you got drunk/walked home/etc, what did you think would happen". Less blaming the victim and more blaming the perpetrators, please; thxbai.

[dreamerdark.livejournal.com]

I agree that no woman should be blamed for her own rape and at the same time women still should be educated thoroughly on the danger and what can be done to avoid it-its good to protect yourself but if you don't its still not any less of an offence. *I* know it wasn't my fault, but still, I would've done alot of things differently had I been more aware of the danger.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

To thee poster: heh, I suppose this goes some way to answering my feminism question.

I missed the question, probably due to problems with receiving comments by e-mail of late. Where was it?

[nyecamden.livejournal.com]

People we perceive as 'good' are often ones who rape and murder. Neighbours of serial killers frequently say 'but he was so normal!'

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

Beat me to it, on all points.

[raindael.livejournal.com]

I get a feeling I read this post from a different perspective ... the list does not stir anger in me, it says we have to be aware and not judge others, that all things are not as they appear, as far as warnings go.
I would have prefered to discuss this with someone IRL, just incase I managed to view it upside down to others (then again, I am from "downunder"
Taking it along the lines of .... don't run someone down on a dark and wet night with your car, just because they are out alone does not mean they are fair game.....

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but they don't often say "I wish I'd told him what a bad idea I thought serial killing was", do they?

[welikegoats.livejournal.com]

You omitted, "Lobby your MP for the death penalty for rapists."

[ali-in-london.livejournal.com]

So are X and Y all we have then?

I may just be getting cynical in my old age, but the two attitudes seem to break down like this...

X: rape will always happen, nothing will change, so all you potential victims (by the way, that involves more than half the population) can do is not do anything on the following list [insert preferred list of risky things].

Y: we can stop or reduce the occurance of rape. At least, we hope we can. The problem is that we don't have much communication with the rapists so we'll just post the "rape is bad" messages in places that are mainly read by our friends.

People get upset with X because it implies that rape is like some kind of illness, and if you don't stick to the list and you catch rape, then that's just to be expected.

People get annoyed with Y because it implies that you (yes, you!) are a potential rapist.

So, is there a way of doing Y that will actually work? I'm biased towards making Y work rather than X since I'd rather like less restrictions on what I can do with my life.

[spangle-kitten.livejournal.com]

I think saying all this is all well and good...and I agree entirely that no-one should ever be raped. But you try telling a rapist those comments. All those scenarios mentioned are ones that rapists love because they can have theier filthy way with women. Of course women should be able to walk the streets at 5am wearing whatever they please, nothing if they really want to...but to expect to not get raped if they're in a vulnerable position is dangerous.

I think women should take precautions to be safe and avoid rape becuase rapists are people with a certain repulsive mentality that does not see that advise as 'normal.' It is just silly to assume people are going to be safe, because they aren't.

I've been raped 4 times. All of which were circumstances (barring one which I doubt the person writing the advise can even concieve of) listed above. I'm very very cynical. I used to want to see the best in people and trust them, through this came the circumstances in which I was raped.

Tell any sane, normal man any of those situations and they'd say they already knew that and adheared to it...tell a rapist and they'd say "they're my favourite targets." Sad but true.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

so all you potential victims (by the way, that involves more than half the population)

As far as I'm concerned, 100% of the population is at risk of being raped. It isn't only something that males do to females, although that is probably the most common example. Oh, the risks vary - and as someone who is six feet tall and fairly confident and with some (very limited) martial arts training, my risk is less than that of, say, someone five feet tall who walks timidly - but the risk is still there. This is, in a way, a separate issue, but it is also why I tend toward your Y than X - all the risk reduction by potential victims in the world isn't going to solve this problem.

Odd to use sex chromosomes as variables.

[uon.livejournal.com]

So, is there a way of doing Y that will actually work?

Now we're talking. But, I don't know. To an extent, I see this as similar to (if vastly nastier than) the problem of muggings: there are plenty of ads out there saying "don't wave your mobile around in public" and "Danger: pickpockets and muggers operate in this area", but these are just trying to shift some of the responsibility onto the victim where in an ideal world that should not happen. What more can the finite number of police do about it? How about a compulsory DNA registry?

(I'd get a lot, an awful lot less annoyed about Y if I thought it might achieve anything.)

This discussion has so far avoided the point that (AFAIK) the majority of rapists are known to their victims, which makes the whole wearing or not wearing of short skirts at night kind of irrelevant.

[spangle-kitten.livejournal.com]

If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her

Well, gee, I'd never thought about it like that! I mean, until I'd read this, I'd never have thought twice about raping someone walking alone at night but now you bring it up I suppose it's not a nice thing to do! I guess I'll just have to stick to mugging instead.

I agree. Telling a rapist not to rape someone in a vulnerable position is like telling a BNP member that actually most black people are quite nice really and they should stop beating them up if they see them alone late at night.

And the "don't beat your wife" adverts hardly cause people to go 'oh, didn't think of that, I better stop immediatly!' it's just too naive and comes from people who seem to think that people are inherently good.

[ali-in-london.livejournal.com]

As far as I'm concerned, 100% of the population is at risk of being raped.

Sorry, should have made it clear that the 50% thing was an assumption on the part of the X idea. I've never seen any "don't do this, otherwise you'll get raped" advise directed at men at all.

Odd to use sex chromosomes as variables

Not noticed that, was just continuing JDC's naming scheme.